Curse

Deyo · Jul 22, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

/signed

Its a sad day when my first post is petition... But, it comes to this:
-Played about 2 weeks
-L18 Mo/Me about to reach Henge. Did every single quest i could find (and when i go out i usually clear most of a map). Came to allmost every location on foot before doing missions.

Net result:
2K gold, bunch of common building materials and Elementalist staff (cos i couldnt find anything even remotelly better and that was my only purple weapon)
Found: 7 runes (all minor), 5 weapon upgrades (all crappy), 6 dyes
Had to do farming runs for collectors items for 2 days cos i couldnt afford to craft armor.

For a bit of background, i dont like PvP in any form and stay away from it. I bought this game for PvE part and some light hearted break from grind of true MMORPGs. Now, if i have to grind as same as i do in other games to be able to color/customise my stuff or to buy a usefull weapon, ill rather go back where that grind can yield a thing that can really make a difference.

D.

Accolon Pendragon · Jul 22, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

/signed

Because I thought that the game would be about having fun and not getting frustrated all the time.

Thanas · Jul 22, 2005, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Here's a question, why should we have to leave the game if we want to farm? Is that for you to decide? Can we not ask for changes like PvP players did? Are you some undercover Anet employee that is here to tell us there's no chance that anything will ever be fixed and that we HAVE to move on because for some reason, other people are allowed to ask for changes when they've nothing more to do in the game, but we aren't?

Doesn't make sense to me.

Firstly I didn't tell you to leave. I left that up to you. Secondly you can ask for changes. I never said you couldn't. However you should understand GW will never support excessive farming since this is contrary to the game concept. You should note however that Anet will in time implement some way to support farmers, but this will be for those who farm in moderation. This a long term objective. There are many things which need to be considered in this game. Farming is one of these things. It needs to be worked into the game concept so that it doesn't interfere with other players enjoyment and unbalance the game. But you must be patient. After all GW does not get continual funding through monthly fees! IMHO I don't think they should include farming at all, since is draws people from the core essence of the game. But this is my opinion.

The main point I have being trying to make is that there are an awful lot of games out there whose core game plan promotes farming and Guild wars is not one of them. It may accomodate it in time on some level but it will never be a full blown farming game. And no I have nothing to do with Anet, I just spend time reading Anet interviews and releases so I am well informed.

PieXags · Jul 22, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by poinerva

OMG!!! You just described farming.

Clever, but if you wanted to play like that I can play that way as well. PvP players get faction for every single skill, weapon upgrade, and rune from every kill/win. It's GUARANTEED that they get the rewards they need for the higher end stuff. Whereas those who try to "farm" in PvE, aren't guaranteed a damn thing anymore, and it's often a waste of their time.

And to Thanas, you're wrong about one thing. It isn't contrary to the games "design" at all. If it was they wouldn't have put the Fissure Armor in the game, they wouldn't have put in the 15k armor either. Someone already said this. These things REQUIRE you to farm, most excessively, to aquire them. And they wouldn't be there if people weren't supposed to try and get them, they wouldn't be there if we weren't supposed to be able to get them. And right now, I couldn't get the fissure armor in many straight MONTHS of farming with what we have, the costs are now close to 2 million I'd say from the price of ectos and obsidian shards.

Thomasuwoo · Jul 22, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

I've been watching the communtiy trade wise quite a bit latley. Prices are falling however the traders are still buying things at obseenly low prices and selling for higher prices too. Eitehr Anet is trying to encouage Player to player trading or is simulating "A great depression." Maybe a bit of both. The point I belive is that I belive Anet realised that the gold floating around in the community was not dissapereing on armour like they'd hoped. Therefore they've deliberatle hit us hard on the gold terms. I belive that the current nerf is probably only temporary to strangle all that gold out of the community, reval any farming spots they may have missed, and then they'll make the merchants buy at more resonable prices.
That said this still isn't a problem for me. I went PvEing with someone from tombs last night to help them cap a few skills. We did thunderheap keep and Iron mines of meladru. 2 hours later i was 4k richer. I wasn't even farming and I got this kind of money.
Note I also had 1 gold drop and 3 other players also got some. My gold drop was a major rune of beast mastery in a garment of some sort. I didn't salvage the rune and the nice merchant bought it off me for 308 gold. Probably alot more then any player would have paid for the actual rune.
I also got a max armour Stone summit warlord sheild. Is it just me or are thoese sheilds cool looking?

Thanas · Jul 22, 2005, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

And to Thanas, you're wrong about one thing. It isn't contrary to the games "design" at all. If it was they wouldn't have put the Fissure Armor in the game, they wouldn't have put in the 15k armor either. Someone already said this. These things REQUIRE you to farm, most excessively, to aquire them. And they wouldn't be there if people weren't supposed to try and get them, they wouldn't be there if we weren't supposed to be able to get them. And right now, I couldn't get the fissure armor in many straight MONTHS of farming with what we have, the costs are now close to 2 million I'd say from the price of ectos and obsidian shards.

I've taken this out of another post I made. Please read. It goes some way to justify the comments I've made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANet interview

Gamecloud - Now that the game has been in full operations for almost two months, what have been the most surprising things about the game and how players have been operating in it?

ArenaNet - We have been very surprised by the speed at which new strategies rise and fall in PvP play. A collection of players and their professions and skills is often called a “build,” and most of our fansites have extensive build databases that record the success or failure of these builds. You will often see the term “FotM” in fan forums, which is short for “Flavor of the Month.” This refers to a build that is current “in” with the player community. However, the running joke is that it should be really be called “FotW” or even “FotD,” as counter-builds tend to emerge very rapidly. We are both surprised and pleased by this, because it means that we have achieved two of our primary objectives with skill design: deep, emergent strategic depth, and solid long-term play balance.

As you can see Anets primary objectives are skills. Wheres the mention of item farming and items being high on their list? Do they even feel excessive farming is a acceptable form of play?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANet interview

This week, as part of our in continuing promise to keep Guild Wars free of hacks, cheats, and other exploits, we closed the accounts of more than 100 users of bots. With today's update we are taking further steps to address the bot problem. New changes will improve our ability to identify and ban users of bots, rebalance mission areas that were highly exploited by bots, and reduce the overall effectiveness of bots, exploits, and other highly repetitive forms of gold and item farming. We are taking these steps to improve the game for all players, so that people using bots to farm gold cannot generate a huge influx of new gold into the economy, which increases prices for everyone and encourages other players to engage in repetitive farming just to keep up.

Well its seems the answer is no. They don't believe excessive farming is acceptable. They have even illustrated the fact that excessive farming is an exploit! You should note that exploiting the game is going against the rules of conduct. You will find this in the EULA. Taking advantage of some exploits will get your account stopped! Bots for farming is such an offence.

Now Although excessive farming isnt accpetable. Farming to some small degree is. That is to say you play a couple of areas a few time over and you are OK. However Guild wars realise that some people wish to farm, but they do not surpport it as the main form of play. This statement gives some general feelings on farming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANet interview

However, it's fair to say that we do not actively encourage an excess of player farming. Some players insist that farming is the only possible way to achieve their objectives. I would say that farming may be a way, but it is not the only way. There will be future changes that will address our intention not to penalize farmer-type players, but instead to make playing through the game lucrative and rewarding so that farming is perceived as what it is meant to be, just one of many gameplay options.

I hate to say this but Anet are aware of the farming situation, so this petition is really quite pointless. It's spawned a good debate though. For that I thank you.

Thanas · Jul 22, 2005, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

I've been watching the communtiy trade wise quite a bit latley. Prices are falling however the traders are still buying things at obseenly low prices and selling for higher prices too. Eitehr Anet is trying to encouage Player to player trading or is simulating "A great depression." Maybe a bit of both. The point I belive is that I belive Anet realised that the gold floating around in the community was not dissapereing on armour like they'd hoped. Therefore they've deliberatle hit us hard on the gold terms. I belive that the current nerf is probably only temporary to strangle all that gold out of the community, reval any farming spots they may have missed, and then they'll make the merchants buy at more resonable prices.
That said this still isn't a problem for me. I went PvEing with someone from tombs last night to help them cap a few skills. We did thunderheap keep and Iron mines of meladru. 2 hours later i was 4k richer. I wasn't even farming and I got this kind of money.
Note I also had 1 gold drop and 3 other players also got some. My gold drop was a major rune of beast mastery in a garment of some sort. I didn't salvage the rune and the nice merchant bought it off me for 308 gold. Probably alot more then any player would have paid for the actual rune.
I also got a max armour Stone summit warlord sheild. Is it just me or are thoese sheilds cool looking?

I've found I can make that much too. Especially if I'm salavaging items for materials.

Ba Ne · Jul 22, 2005, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

As you can see Anets primary objectives are skills. Wheres the mention of item farming and items being high on their list? Do they even feel excessive farming is a acceptable form of play?

You've said this at least twice now. That statement does not say that Anet's primary objective is skills. All that statement says is that their primary objectives when it comes to skill design are strategic depth and play balance.

"We are both surprised and pleased by this, because it means that we have achieved two of our primary objectives with skill design: deep, emergent strategic depth, and solid long-term play balance."

You're putting words in their mouth and not reading what they're actually saying.

Gauge Ironfist · Jul 22, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

I feel that Anet believes that inorder to maintain a fun game for all people to play, they they need to limit the effectiveness of "over-exploited" farming. What I mean by this is that they really dont care if you farm items to make money, I do it to get the much needed gold, but to take a level such as the "drake runs" where at the time the drakes lightning attack was compairable worthless, and farm them many times(many meaning 10s of times or 100s of times people which bots and other forms of excessive farming could do) in order to gain a LOT of stuff with little effort was never there intent.

Im not saying the farming should be gotten rid of, but some areas that have a MUCH greater likelyhood of dropping items (you all know the runs im talking about) that are high in demand and you can bring in a TON of them is way out of proportion.

Which brings me to the point that they put a limit on your storage so that one person could never amount SO much money that they basically never would run out. I think they believed that 1,000,000g was a crap load that would not be gotten easily, but what we can see is that they "were" very wrong.

SOT · Jul 22, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Have any of you "signers" realized that calling a forum thread "petition to whatever" on an official fan-site is not gonna do it for ya?

LMAO.

PieXags · Jul 22, 2005, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Nothing's guaranteed to "do it for us" mate, I called it a petition because it encourages some people to simplify their responses to "/signed" many times, I'd rather see a lot of /signed posts than a lot of " I agree because of this..." followed by many pages of arguments, right now we've only got...a couple pages of arguments, instead of the entire thread.

Also, Thanas, your "quote" doesn't help counter my point at all, just because the economy and drop rate isn't the primary objective of the game does NOT mean that farming is in opposition to the objectives, not by ANY means. This is proven by the fact that they took the time to put the fissure/15k armors in the game for people to try and get. Sure designing those armors wasn't their PRIMARY objectives, but they put them in there for those who want to get them anyway...and getting there, requires you either to exploit the population by becoming a droknar rusher, or to farm.

quanzong · Jul 22, 2005, 09:11 PM // 21:11

You people that save up for fissure should just go COLLECT the ecto and shards, not save up for it. I bet you a lot that you will SAVE more TIME then.
I'm satisfied with my 15K armor, I dont need to look the best of the best.

Fissure armor is cheap 15K just requires expensive items that you can COLLECT, I get at least 1 ecto every UW run, and UW run is only 25 mins. Think of the time you save if you just collect everything yourself.

tuskenraid · Jul 22, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

/signed

I read through the first 9 pages, so I apologize if I repeat something. I am completely in favor of this. Most people forget that it's not just about the gold. For me that is actually a minor issue. The drop nerfing is what is really killing me. I have played through the entire game once and currently have 2 other PvE characters at various stages and 1 PvP character that I am waiting to utilize. I have received in grand total 1 purple drop 2 gold drops and about 5 runes, all minor and not for my any of my classes. This is exhausting. I would really like for my warrior to have a some superior runes when I get to higher levels, but I can't get them from drops, or according to Anet, "the way the game is supposed to be played". So what is my option. Go buy one. Oh, ok brilliant idea. A superior vigor is only 30K. Playing "normally" I'm lucky if I have about 10k by the time I reach Droknars. Then I get better armor, not 15K mind you, and if I had to pay for some materials, which I usually don't, I'm crap outta luck. So what do I do, I am forced to farm, an action that I really don't enjoy.

My PvP character I can't use. Why? because I have not unlocked the most important runes for him yet.... because they don't freaking drop. Sure I could go do arenas all day.. Sorry, I have a life. Faction points in small amounts if I have to get with a decent assinged group don't quickly add up to the 1000-3000 faction points required. It'll take me about a 7-8 months to unlock the items I want for my PvP character. This is supposed to be fun casual gaming? I don't think so.

Anet, please fix this. Gold sinks are great ideas, like the 15K armor and Fissure armor. But making the "fixes" balance out. Allow us to accumulate more gold quicker. If you're worried about the economy, fine, but for god sake allow useful item and rune drops. I love this game but I am quickly tiring of the effort needed for very marginal results.

Forboding Angel · Jul 22, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by quanzong

You people that save up for fissure should just go COLLECT the ecto and shards, not save up for it. I bet you a lot that you will SAVE more TIME then.
I'm satisfied with my 15K armor, I dont need to look the best of the best.

Fissure armor is cheap 15K just requires expensive items that you can COLLECT, I get at least 1 ecto every UW run, and UW run is only 25 mins. Think of the time you save if you just collect everything yourself.

I spent 3 hours in UW the other day and I have yet to see what ecto looks like.

Anton H · Jul 22, 2005, 09:47 PM // 21:47

I've gone to the UW perhaps 30-40 times and never, ever had an Ecto drop.

However I get 5-15 shards per FoW venture. I wonder if that is someones sick joke.

At any rate, I've noticed prices falling... rapidly, and I believe its caused by Anets nerfing. Less farmers - less obscenely rich people - fewer people to buy things at stupid amounts of money. (with the exception of runners, but I have no problem with people using skill to make money, rather than just burning hours killing the same creature 100 times). Hell, even runners are making less (droks runs can be had for 3k now, rather than 5-10 as was a few months ago).

Now if they would make the in-game merchants something less than the worlds-worst rip off, the games economy might actually pick up a notch. Anet wonders why we dont sell things to the merchant at 1/4 the true value of the product. Gee. A slick interface won't make us rip ourselves off.

Hanok Odbrook · Jul 22, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Clever, but if you wanted to play like that I can play that way as well. PvP players get faction for every single skill, weapon upgrade, and rune from every kill/win. It's GUARANTEED that they get the rewards they need for the higher end stuff. Whereas those who try to "farm" in PvE, aren't guaranteed a damn thing anymore, and it's often a waste of their time.

And to Thanas, you're wrong about one thing. It isn't contrary to the games "design" at all. If it was they wouldn't have put the Fissure Armor in the game, they wouldn't have put in the 15k armor either. Someone already said this. These things REQUIRE you to farm, most excessively, to aquire them. And they wouldn't be there if people weren't supposed to try and get them, they wouldn't be there if we weren't supposed to be able to get them. And right now, I couldn't get the fissure armor in many straight MONTHS of farming with what we have, the costs are now close to 2 million I'd say from the price of ectos and obsidian shards.

That's one of my points, coming from the casual gaming perspective. What Anet is doing is completely illogical. First they design this game with players such as myself in mind - we don't have a lot of free time to dedicate to playing games extensively, and when we do, try to complete games in the manner of their design. Anet then nerfs things that go against that design, yet have items included in the game that cannot be gotten any other way except by doing things that they are trying to stop. They made this game so grinding and farming would not be necessary, yet it still remains so. Makes no sense to me at all!

If the Fissure armor is the reward for being a hard-core gamer, that's all well and good, but can it be gotten by doing each quest and mission only once through to the end of the game, or does one have to grind/farm in order to be able to procure this armor. As I stated in a previous message, I have completed this game in such a manner a few times and am not even close to being able to get Fissure armor, yet I am playing this game exactly as Anet desgined it to be played. I don't get it - maybe I missed something along the way, or misinterpreted Anet's intentions, but they seem to be saying one thing, then doing something completely opposite with GW.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
http://www.realmillenniumgroup.com/guild.html
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

quanzong · Jul 22, 2005, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Yeah but if Anet went to its normal ways, wouldnt everyone that knows how to farm have FoW armor, because so many good drops. I like it how it is because its much harder to look the best now, and when people come up to me and see my 15K gladiator they give me comment, I'm sure people with FoW get serval comments, but if EVERYONE had them there wouldnt be anymore comments on a player, it will just be wow your not going to go with me in HoH you dont have FoW armor, or those people that dont know how to farm will get slams because there armor isnt with everyone elses.

Iceciro · Jul 22, 2005, 10:47 PM // 22:47

/Signed

I felt immediate reprecussions because as soon as I started to farm the ettins near the Nebo Weaver, I got a message to restart for a patch. Lo, and that was the nerf stick. In that first run against Ettins, I probably killed 20, and got 10 or so runes, it was pretty nuts. Most of those runes i gave to my guild, one was a Sup Absorb and I put it right on then and there.

Then, I restarted. I havent seen an ettin drop a gold Pauldron since. Now, maybe my first run was excessive farming, because yeah, doing that over and over I might get halfway rich. But there is no reason I should kill 50 ettins and get two crap runes, when I'm doing it solo.

Another option might be to increase good drops for teams (not henchman.)

Talesin Darkbriar · Jul 22, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Has anyone thought that perhaps the reason Anet has nearly impossible to acquire items in the game is for the 24/7 crowd of players?

Yes, Guild Wars is designed for CASUAL players.
But do only casual players play it?

Not at all, we have the atypical suspect list of powergamers, leetdoods, and ne'r do wells that are all driven to win-win-WIN!

The rare armors and items give these players something to attain and then gloat over - AND - I may add, without incurring any real combat penalty to the all the rest of us.

This is not a nerf, this is a stroke of genius.
Although the "driven" players will of course see it as heresy.

So be it.

Talesin

Hanok Odbrook · Jul 22, 2005, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by quanzong

Yeah but if Anet went to its normal ways, wouldnt everyone that knows how to farm have FoW armor, because so many good drops. I like it how it is because its much harder to look the best now, and when people come up to me and see my 15K gladiator they give me comment, I'm sure people with FoW get serval comments, but if EVERYONE had them there wouldnt be anymore comments on a player, it will just be wow your not going to go with me in HoH you dont have FoW armor, or those people that dont know how to farm will get slams because there armor isnt with everyone elses.

But farming isn't supposed to be part of playing GW - completing the quests and missions, and building a good skill set are. Therefore, using their reasoning in developing the game the way they did and their nerf of farming, shouldn't I then be able to get FoW armor simply by playing the game as intended, without the grind?

My point is that Anet's actions seem contradictory to their purposes. I wouldn't have a problem with FoW armor only being obtainable by farming or otherwise putting in a ton of time in this game - IF Anet didn't seem so hellbent on nerfing the ability to obtain it. To say that GW is balanced for all types of players, then nerf half of those players out of being able to get any item in the game is hypocritical.

GW has the ability to appeal to the three major player groups - casual, hard-core, and PvP, but they have since gone about it in the wrong way. Farming is an inherent part of the CRPG lifestyle, there's no getting past that. Not every person who plays PC games can dedicate their lives to that persuit, yet they should be able to get the maximum amount of enjoyment out of a game nonetheless. Some players want farming - well then, set up certain parts of the world, like the FoW, to be strictly farming areas with the end goal to be completing the armor set. The majority of players don't farm, so set up the bulk of the world to allow them to play the game as intended and by doing so, acquire every item created in the game, with the exception of the farming area specific items. Add a few other tweaks to maintain the balance of the game, and to eliminate the "farming for profit" group, and the problem is solved.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
http://www.realmillenniumgroup.com/guild.html
Truth * Knowledge * Peace